Athens , 14 December 2009

Mr. Economou: Deputy Foreign Minister Mr. Spyros Kouvelis is here in the studio with us. Hello, Mr. Minister.

Mr. Liritzis: Good morning, Mr. Kouvelis.

Mr. Kouvelis: Good morning.

Mr. Economou: Welcome. And our best wishes on your name day the day before yesterday.

Mr. Kouvelis: Thank you very much.

Mr. Economou: When are you leaving for Copenhagen?

Mr. Kouvelis: Tomorrow around noon.

Mr. Liritzis: What do we want to achieve at Copenhagen? The Prime Minister is of course also going to attend.

Mr. Kouvelis: I’m afraid that what we want to achieve will be different that what we will achieve in reality.

Mr. Liritzis: What is the objective with which you are going there?

Mr. Kouvelis: What we want to achieve as a country given our government’s sensitivity with regard to the environment – you know that it is a matter close to the Prime Minister’s heart – is a binding agreement that would state that we are all committed to cutting the percentage of greenhouse gas emissions – for example by 20%, the target to which the European Union has committed itself – in order to prevent a global average temperature rise of more than 2 °C.

What we really expect to achieve is a political – at least – agreement stating that we all agree on the need to take immediate measures.

Mr. Liritzis: But that is very general, Mr. Kouvelis.

Mr. Kouvelis: That is the problem unfortunately.

Mr. Economou: From what we understand up until now, the draft’s wording is general. That is, we understand that the expectations are very low, Mr. Kouvelis.

Mr. Kouvelis: Exactly. From what I’ve read, UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon made a statement yesterday in New York which indicates that there is a framework for an initial agreement, but a rather general political agreement.

But it is better to have a general political agreement than no agreement at all.

Mr. Liritzis: Obviously.

Mr. Kouvelis: Beyond that, the only thing we can do is to sink our teeth - if I may put it that way - into the task of ensuring that there will be an agreement within one year following the Copenhagen summit. Our plan is for Greece to achieve a local agreement, a local plan at the level of the Balkans, the Eastern Mediterranean, the Maghreb countries...

Mr. Liritzis: That is what I wanted to ask you; whether it makes sense and whether it is effective for us to conclude such agreements. First of all, between member states of the European Union . Secondly, on the regional level that you mentioned earlier. Whether it makes sense…

Mr. Kouvelis: Absolutely.

Mr. Liritzis: Or whether it is true what certain people say, i.e., that if the big countries don’t join in, there can be no question.

Mr. Kouvelis: Look, it would be better to have an agreement for everyone, but it would make particular sense for the Mediterranean. The Mediterranean basin is a region that will be impacted disproportionately more than others. That is, an average rise of 2°C could lead to +4-5°C in the Mediterranean.

So we have every reason to want to spearhead this fight, just like the European Union. A second reason – specific to Greece – is that Greece. as a country, cannot influence what happens with oil and natural gas. At best, we can just become a hub.

But we have a comparative advantage as far as renewable energy sources and green technology are concerned. The more results come out of Copenhagen, the more important and more positive the outcome for our country.

Mr. Liritzis: We cannot head towards a certain policy on our own. I often hear government officials talking about green policy, green development, a shift in the country’s development model. Could we not follow our own path irrespective of Copenhagen?

Mr. Kouvelis: We could.

Mr. Liritzis: With regard to our country.

Mr. Kouvelis: First of all, we agreed upon and committed to the European Union’s 2010 targets, i.e., 20% renewables, 20% emission cuts, etc. We have every reason to try to achieve more and indeed the Prime Minister spoke about it in the government’s policy statements; we committed unilaterally to a 20% share of renewable sources of energy, despite the fact that our obligation under the EU targets is for an 18% cut - so we took on a further 2%. The reason is that we are interested in developing this know-how.

Mr. Economou: Mr. Kouvelis, what is it that has not helped towards a big leap at Copenhagen? As things stand at the moment, we don’t seem to be heading towards major changes – unless there is a last-minute surprise.

Mr. Kouvelis: Look, let me start with your second point, i.e.,  that we can never rule out last-minute surprises. That is, it would be good to remain somewhat optimistic given that many political leaders will be attending and that their presence might allow for negotiations to be held at the last minute. It has happened before.

The fact that President Obama changed his plans in order to attend the closing rather than the opening of the Summit…

Mr. Economou: This might mean something.

Mr. Kouvelis: He needs to say something. He has to commit himself. I would say that what happened is a combination of many minor failures. In the case of the United States – one of the major players – it has to do with the failure to get legislation through the Senate. The reason is that Obama put more emphasis on the healthcare reform – for domestic reasons – thus leaving this issue behind; and as a result he cannot come to Copenhagen now with binding objectives, because he lacks the legislation.

Mr. Liritzis: Isn’t the broader economic environment also unfavourable, Mr. Minister? What I mean by that is that often big countries might be more preoccupied about saving their industrial output and jobs.

And another view that has been put forward is that there are no objections on countries making efforts for the environment, but, on the other hand, at a time of economic pressure, prioritizing measures that lead to a contraction in output, would damage countries socially. It would be tantamount to a drop in industrial output and job cuts.

Mr. Kouvelis: I’m sorry to interrupt, but that is where the biggest misunderstanding lies. We have reached the point today of asking which countries will be the ones to pay and which will be the ones to receive funding in order for this phenomenon to be tackled. If we moved ahead all together in a coordinated manner – developed and developing countries, I mean – and agreed on starting to shift our output towards a different model, then this would bring about a great deal of investments in new forms of technology. This would increase consumption and boost demand and investment.

Mr. Economou: But it is a long-term plan.

Mr. Kouvelis: Yes, long-term, but what we are saying is…

Mr. Economou: Yes, but its impact will be felt today.

Mr. Kouvelis: …[we're saying] that this could also be the exit from the current financial crisis. If China, India, all the developing countries and our own countries agree to produce renewable energy sources – let’s put it practically, photovoltaic or wind parks, etc. – then the 2020 target for Greece alone would be €16 billion of investments in renewable energy sources and the creation of 7,000-8,000 jobs.

This is not an economic contraction, at least as I see it.

Mr. Economou: No, it is a long-term goal.

Mr. Kouvelis: We just need an agreement stating that we are all moving ahead together, because if some people don’t agree, wanting to stick to fossil fuels, then the whole thing would be blown into the air.

Mr. Liritzis: Can we say - we certainly can’t be alone in saying it – that we are shifting our development in a different direction, at a time when there are international calls for us to take measures, to restrict ourselves?

Mr. Kouvelis: Fortunately, Greece can. And do you know why? Because along with Hawaii, Greece is the richest region in the world in terms of its potential in renewables, solar, wind and mostly geothermal energy.

This means that if we make this shift, then there will be foreign investments and this is important to an economy that needs them, as you can understand.

Mr. Liritzis: So let’s hope for the best then.

Mr. Kouvelis: I hope I will be a bearer of good news.